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| A Female Perspective of the PUA Summit, pt. 1 |
| Posted by RadiantSun in: Community News & Events, First Impressions, Product Reviews |
Hey guys, this is RadiantSun. I didn’t meant to make you guys wait for me. I know Khiem said I’d post my entry the day after his but he and I had to make sure you guys would really get something out of my writing… so without further ado, here’s part one of my perspective of the Los Angeles PUA Summit 2007.
Have you ever woken up and felt a little uncomfortable with what you did the day before?
That’s how I felt the morning after the PUA Summit. I worked there as a volunteer because I was interested in learning about what the Seduction Community was teaching men and I wanted to help out my friend Johnny Wolf, whom I’ve met through Khiem. My biggest discomfort came from the fact that I felt I was being publicly too supportive and I didn’t make my voice and my real opinions be heard enough when I disagreed.
When I went, I really wanted to like every speaker but in truth, it wasn’t the case. I liked some of the speakers, from the message they had, to how they presented themselves, their ideas, their goals, and their hopes for other members of the Community but with some other ones, I felt like I was in second grade. I was bored and I thought that any woman with self-esteem would not fall for that crap.
I understand that some of the techniques (even if it’s crap) obviously work for some men and not others. It also works on some women and not others, but some of the “crap” that seems to work plays on the fact that some (younger) women really aren’t sure about themselves. They don’t know what they want, especially with men and it doesn’t matter if they are a bitch or not. Is it what you guys want to play with? The self-assurance that a confident man (not boy) would want from a high quality woman doesn’t usually come until the woman reaches her late 20’s, early 30’s or later, rarely earlier. Unfortunately, sometimes it never happens.
I also know that some of the techniques taught are designed to knock-out a woman’s “bitch shield,” but have you ever stop to consider why we even have those in the first place? We want to meet real, genuine and masculine men. We have bitch shields to protect us from being hurt. If you were being real with us, we wouldn’t need our bitch shield up.
Another big concern for me was the issue of safer sex. Women love sex just as much as men, maybe more, but I was worried to note that the use of condoms was only mentioned once. It was only mentioned in the Vin DiCarlo Escalation Ladder and it wasn’t even talked about in a manner to remind men to practice safer sex. Instead, “Do you want me to get the condom?” was used to bypass the woman’s resistance in removing her panties when she’s already being aroused by your foreplay skills. If you’re having sex, please don’t be a disease vector too!
STDs, testing, and prevention was never discussed. I had a one-on-one conversation with a guy who seemed concerned with ethical sexual behavior. What I shared with him are two guidelines that I think will help:
- Get tested regularly, for everything. Get vaccinated for HPV (difficult to find a place that will vaccinate men but they exist, call aim-med) and hepatitis (any GP Dr.)
- Be honest with the type of relationship you want. There are many women who don’t want a relationship and just want sex. If that’s all you want, those women are great matches. If you know you are not going to marry the girl or don’t want to be monogamous with her, tell her upfront so that she is free to make her own decisions about what is right for her. It may surprise you but there are quite a few young women who are comfortable with that kind of thing.
I really feel that the risky parts of sex got glossed over, and that’s unfair to you guys and the girls you are having sex with.
Now, let’s talk about the speakers. I’m paraphrasing a lot, so not everything may be 100% accurate.
The second person I met at the summit was Vince Kelvin. I had a hard time taking Vince seriously. He dressed very peacock-ish (aka way over the top, especially for his age). His attire didn’t provide him the credibility or high value status that I expected, which interfered with my ability to respect him. However, since he was one of the event organizer, I followed his instructions. Overall, the summit was very well organized but to me, Vince seemed disorganized when coordinating the volunteers… probably because he was always scrambling to get the next thing accomplished. I think it worked well anyway because the volunteers were all smart people to begin with.
Johnny’s sister was also a volunteer. I really liked her. I felt more comfortable knowing that there was another intelligent female who was in support of what the Community had to teach. It was also cool for me to see siblings helping each other out.
Johnny Soporno
The first speaker I heard was Johnny Soporno. He was an older man, somewhat round, and had thinning hair. He talked about the evolution of the concept of property, farming, plots of land, control, etc. He explained that when you own something and you cannot walk away from it, it owns you too. For example, if you own a house and you can’t walk away from it, you become slave to it as it owns you too. One of the most important things I think he said was:
Women are not property. You do not own them. They do not own you. This does not mean we do not want to be together but if we are together, it is out of choice, not obligation.
Violet Marcell, his girlfriend, was on stage with him but she was not his only woman. Johnny Soporno is explicitly honest with every woman he is with. He is not a one woman man and has two rules for himself:
1) that he must not be the only cock a woman is getting
2) I forgot the other one but I remember feeling like it was reasonable.
I can see that he is a very sexually open person even though he dresses kind of like one of my geek friends. I surprisingly didn’t have a problem with anything I heard him say. He came from a place of deep honesty with who he was and with what his intentions were. He is 100% okay with a girl not being interested in what he has to offer. He is very non-needy and that made him attractive. He also didn’t like to judge women by calling them sluts when they are just sexually open and free. You shouldn’t have to call any woman a slut, whether you sleep with them or not. This only hurts you in the long run.
I talked to him a little off-stage to ask his opinion on a past relationship. The guy told me I could see other men as long as I didn’t tell him about it because he was going to do the same. I wasn’t sure how to take that. I didn’t want to do anything I couldn’t talk about so I never slept with anyone else. That obviously didn’t work for me long term. Johnny Soporno compared his behavior to the “Gays in the Military: don’t ask, don’t tell” philosophy. In his opinion, it doesn’t work. It comes from the place of “I don’t care as long as I don’t know” and that is dishonest, particularly to yourself. It always seemed a little chicken-shit to me, it was nice to have confirmation from an intelligent male who lived this lifestyle and had clearly put a lot of thought into how to make it work optimally. He also gave me a link to his site, Seductive Reasoning. I will watch it this weekend.
Adam Lyons
He had a lot of energy, and was a young wiry, well-groomed and normally dressed guy. He intentionally referred to himself as an AFC. His modesty made him charming. His main idea was: if you go to a club, meet and be friendly with everyone. Getting social proof builds comfort automagically ahead of time for you. People notice you the same way they notice a hot girl being approached by many men. They will look at you, smile at you and get curious about you as you are walking around the room building your value.
Like a true socialite, he said:
Don’t sleep with the first girl you meet. You might like her friend more.
I have found this to be true for myself as well. I like to spend time getting to know a guy and his friends because one of his friends may be a better match for me, and one of my friends may be a better match for him. I’ve also found remaining friends is a good way to too. For example, one of my ex-boyfriend’s ex-girlfriend whom I became friends with is now passionately involved with one of my ex-boyfriends.
Adam had an amazingly hot and friendly girlfriend. I asked him:
Me: What do you like about her?
Him: She challenges me. There are times I just can’t stand her. She gets on my nerves but when I tell her something, she doesn’t always take it. She challenges me right back.
It sounds like they are both very confident in themselves. I could definitely see the loving and fun chemistry between them.
I really liked Adam’s energy. He encourages people to be socially dynamic and engaging which is so important if you want to become that fun, loving guy. His confidence and his love for having fun and connecting people really made him stand out.
Tung from Social Relations Institute
I think Tung was my favorite speaker for the content of his speech… even though he has room to grow as a presenter. He was an Asian guy, normally yet fashionably dressed. His overall message was: be well-intentioned.
“Be confident in who you are.”, he said. “If you are a likable social person, people will like you. Treat others the way you wish to be treated.” I’d like to add that if you treat yourself like crap, you aren’t going to be able to treat others well. Being well-intentioned, to me, means treating each other with respect and the way to respect a woman is different than the way you give a man respect. You don’t have to treat each other the same. It is about approaching the other person without stepping on their masculinity or femininity.
One thing that made Tung different from the other speakers was his opinion on approach anxiety. Anxiety is a good thing. The more anxiety you feel about approaching a girl, the more you know you like her — pay attention to that. It’s good! Tung was taking an existential position with this idea and I could really relate to it. Anxiety is in fact natural and has a place in our lives. We can in fact work with it, rather than having it work against us.
That Tung conveyed a sense of genuine caring both for his students and for the women he engaged with made him very attractive.
ThunderCat
ThunderCat was a heavy set bald guy. From appearance alone, you would not have thought he was a master PUA. However, as he spoke with calm confidence, I found him attractive too. He carried some very powerful and important messages that I think men AND women could benefit from:
Don’t be ashamed of being male (or female!). Be confident. Love yourself. Women are people too (so are men!).
His take on approach anxiety came at an angle I had never thought of before, and it made perfect sense. The number one reason guys are afraid of hot women is not because of fear of rejection. We get rejected everyday. We ask a friend to the movies, he/she says “no.” We ask if the restaurant we are at has steak, they say “no, we’re out.” It’s no big deal. We in fact get rejected daily. Rejection is not what we are afraid of. Instead, we are afraid of judgment.
People are naturally judgmental. When you judge someone, the concept of reciprocity works somewhere in the back of your brain so you end afraid of the judgment that may come from the other person and that will come from yourself. When you judge them positively, you put them on a pedestal so you become afraid of the judgment you give yourself for not attracting them.
You are your own worst critic. You know your flaws best but no one else really knows them but you. This concept is something I’ve written about before and trust me guys, you are not alone in having a yapping inner critic. Thundercat’s advice works for men and women: stop being so JUDGMENTAL of yourself and others. Many of the guys in the PUA Community rate women on a 1-10 scale. Thundercat prefers his own scale: is she “good enough” or “not good enough”? That’s it. You shouldn’t judge your friends on how hot their partners are either. If they are happy, who cares?
Another salient point he made was that:
When you are comfortable with negative emotion, you train yourself to accept that and so when positive emotion comes your way, it seems out of place.
On using trickery and deceit in seduction, he said:
You can trick but it is only in the moment and in the long run, it will cost you when she discovers you aren’t you. Women are human beings, they have free will and you cannot make someone do anything they didn’t want to do, even if you trick them in the moment. You can only control you. You can’t control others. When you are a positive non-judgmental person, women (people) want to naturally be with you.
The only point I want to quibble with is: “You cannot make someone do anything they didn’t want to do, even if you trick them in the moment.” By virtue of tricking someone, you are providing a false context and you are taking away their ability to make a fully informed decision. By hiding information or misleading them, they can’t soundly choose if they want to do something or not.
On the other hand, I agree with his point that trickery is not doing you any favors. I think that if a person feels the need to trick someone into liking them, it implies that they find flaws or failings within themselves and feel they aren’t good enough for the other person. This proves that the person is not truly confident in him/herself. It tells me their inner critic is still sitting on a shoulder shouting down their value and pushing away happiness. It could also be the person is a scumbag. It happens and they will get their comeuppance eventually.
puaL
He was dressed in a trendy way with some black eyeliner, which always looks funny to me when it’s on anyone who isn’t a goth kid. In time, I’m sure I’ll get used to men wearing make up. I like that men can now have that burden too. 
puaL was the first speaker who took me a while to warm up to. His opening joke rubbed me the wrong way. While dining at a restaurant, his beautiful girlfriend leaned over and told him “Paul, I’m pregnant.” He then stood up, picked her up and punched her in the stomach. Sorry guys, I don’t find that funny. Yes, it is a “joke” but it is a cheap joke. I’m sure he didn’t mean it this way but a joke that tacitly condone violence against women (or anyone) is not humorous to me. A lot of these kinds of jokes are ubiquitous in our culture, and often slip by unnoticed. You may get a few laughs but it’s just inappropriate. I don’t remember what he said next because I was too busy being appalled.
His story would have been the perfect opportunity to remind guys of the consequence of condomless sex or the incorrect use of condoms (which can also make a girl pregnant) but since he didn’t, I will again. A girl being “on the pill” does not guarantee that she is 100% safe from pregnancy or STDs, especially if she is also taking antibiotics or St. John’s Wart. I know that some girls will lie to you and as many of you can imagine, end up knocked up! Remember that the pill has ZERO protection against STDs. If you don’t know how to put on a condom properly or remove it properly, learn how here.
When I put my gut reaction aside and listen to his content without being emotionally charged, I admit that puaL has a some good messages. Don’t be ashamed of what you want or who you are. If you want to tell a pretty girl she is pretty, do it. For example, “I noticed you. You’re very pretty and I wanted to tell you that today.”
He also talked about beliefs. You should examine where your beliefs come from. Are they really yours?
He then reaffirmed like many other speakers that the most seductive thing you can do is to be 100% you. Being unique and special makes you infinitely valuable. This is good advice. By being 100% you, you will attract someone that is a good match for you.
He proceeded to demonstrate how to successfully approach women on the streets, even when you are using a pick-up line. As I walked across the stage, he addressed me with: “If you were a booger, I’d pick you first. I just wanted you to know that.” I have to confess. It made me laugh. It was a good opener just because it was so absurd but his use of a pick-up line wasn’t what made me laugh. It was how he said it. If you are a PUA worth your salt, you should already know how tonality, body language, eye contact all convey messages beyond the spoken word. His non-verbal communication was attractive.
This slightly strange looking guy, tall, thin and wiry with trendy clothes, messy hair and smeared eyeliner knew how to carry himself with confidence. It’s hard to explain. Some things can’t be explained with words. Confidence is something you have to see in action to get it. If you looked at all the things he demonstrated on stage and removed that air of confidence from him, everything would look really silly.
Basically, “learn the PUA tools, so you can drop them. Trust yourself”, he said. A wise professor once taught me that when you over learn something, you make the conscious unconscious. It is the last step of the four steps to competence which are:
- unconscious incompetence
- conscious incompetence
- conscious competence
- unconscious competence
Three other things I liked from puaL’s presentation was:
- People don’t want to be dicks or bitches.
- This is not about getting laid, that’s a side benefit.
- People move nations by communication.
We broke out for lunch… and I will post part two and part three soon.
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September 9th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
“I also know that some of the techniques taught are designed to knock-out a woman’s “bitch shield,” but have you ever stop to consider why we even have those in the first place? We want to meet real, genuine and masculine men. We have bitch shields to protect us from being hurt. If you were being real with us, we wouldn’t need our bitch shield up.”
Have you ever thought that if being real and emotionally available with women worked, men wouldn’t need to learn how to puncture those bitch shields in the first place? Think about it the next time you watch a woman milk a guy for bar drinks, dinner, movies, etc., that she has no real attraction for. Men have feelings too, and women fail to acknowledge when they trample all over men. Because confidence is one of the things that women find attractive in men, you’ll rarely see men complain. Doesn’t mean if you look you won’t see what has happened.
“Is it what you guys want to play with? The self-assurance that a confident man (not boy) would want from a high quality woman doesn’t usually come until the woman reaches her late 20’s, early 30’s or later, rarely earlier. Unfortunately, sometimes it never happens.”
This whole rant from you comes down to a which came first, the chicken or the egg/personal responsibility thing. Why won’t women take it on themselves to develop that self-assurance while they’re still at their most physically desirable, why do they have to wait until they are losing their physical attractiveness towards men? Whose fault is that? And if some women never grow up, whose fault is that, and what happens to the men who mathematically by default will wind up with her?
You also show no understanding of men. Men can separate sex from love, and social proof shows that a man who is having sex with other women will be more desirable to women in general. He is more likely to attract and keep the one he is interested in by staying involved with women in general. For a man to have open ended, casual sex with women, it is good for his future prospects and good for his self esteem. If women didn’t want it to be that way, then they should chase after men who aren’t getting any, not those who have been getting plenty.
September 9th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
In summation, Gandhi said it best: “Be the change in the world that you want to see.” Go out to your sisters and ask them to become the women who develop self assurance at an early age, and are receptive to open, honest, emotionally available men who are single and have been waiting for the right person for quite some time. If the majority of women did that, then within a few generations that is how the majority of men would be.
September 10th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
It doesn’t matter how you win (the game), but that you win.
September 10th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
You don’t have to buy a girl a thing to get past her bitch shield. The last several times guys at bars asked to buy me a drink, I told them “If you’re just looking to get laid, you’re better off looking elsewhere.” A few of them just walked away, one lectured me acting very indignant. I think he was pissed I called his bluff. . . and the one I dated, laughed and continued talking to me. The confident man is the one I dated.
I have no doubt that women use men, and men use women. This post was not about that. Men & women burning each other, is sadly part of the “battle of the sexes” which in my opinion, really needs to stop! (There is way too much bashing in this society!) I’m not saying all women are wonderful people but just like men, there is a mixture.
You are totally right with your chicken and egg point — I feel that it is because of how some men and some women treat each other that a problem has developed for everyone else and some start acting from a fear based place, furthering the problem. And there is not point in blaming one side or the other. It is, IMHO, better to be a part of the solution, not part of the problem — “piercing the bitch shield” to fuck her and move on without her fully informed consent is part of the problem, providing more validation for the need of a bitch shield!
Men absolutely have feelings too. And if it weren’t for men, the world wouldn’t be as wonderful as it is. It sounds like you have a few feelings of your own and it sounds like you’ve been burned. I’m really sorry that has happened.
As far as waiting until they lose their physical attractiveness — when does that happen? 25, 30? You’re cute. Men and women these days are attractive, some well into their 50’s, some are unattractive for life. Attraction isn’t just about appearance, even though for men is it a lot more about visual appeal - but that isn’t all.
I find it interesting that you are very keen on placing blame. There are, as you know, a lot of factors involved as to why people aren’t as confident as they could be and some of it is because of the individual, and some of it is because of how they have been raised and how their values have been instilled. As for what happens for women who never grow up? They usually end up with men who haven’t grown up either. Sometimes that guy has “rescuer syndrome” and thinks he is a grown-up, but the truth is, in an adult relationship, neither party needs to parent or be parented by the other person. As I’m sure you know, not all men ever grow up either. It all depends on how you play. If you want to be a trickster — go ahead. If you want a girl that isn’t mature, that’s cool too.
As for multiple partners, I never said I thought there was anything wrong with that. What I think is wrong, is lying to the person about how you want the nature of the relationship to be and not giving them the opportunity to figure out if that is also what they want.
I never said that men couldn’t separate sex from love. Social proof in a venue, is not about sex. It is about subcommunicating leadership, confidence, popularity, and connections. Those are really attractive. Social proof is not about proving that you’ve bed a lot of women. For a person to derive self-esteem from the number of sex partners they have, as you suggest, means that person doesn’t really have self esteem to begin with.
If a guy has multiple partners — some women won’t go after that guy, especially if what they want is a monogamous relationship and they refuse to settle. Some women don’t care and are happy to be with that guy. And some women will be with him hoping they can change him — truth is… they can’t.
“If the majority of women did that, that is how the majority of men would be”
Maybe. We may end up with a lot of single childless women if we don’t all become more whole and confident people at the same time.
As for being the change I want to see in the world, again, you assume that I am not already doing that.
September 10th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Godspeed,
If you are just looking to score, you are right. It doesn’t matter how you win (the game) as as long as you win.
However, if you are looking to truly connect with people and set up meaningful (long-term) relationships with them, how you win matters. If it didn’t matter, you’d have to do a lot of quick fixes to maintain the relationship. It’s the whole idea of setting good precedence from the start.
Truth,
I find it interesting that you bundled “being real” and “being emotionally available” together. From my experience, being real works (but you still have to be a masculine man). Being emotionally available on the other hand… is something totally different.
Being TOO emotionally available implies being needy and supplicative. Being real is about not putting the woman on a pedestal and not changing who you are for someone else. It’s also about not putting your life purpose on hold when you meet that truly amazing woman.
Also, I’m curious of your definition of “bitch shield”. To me, a bitch shield is when a woman acts mean because she is not feeling you. She doesn’t want to talk to you. What you described with woman taking advantage of men when they milk them for various materialistic things is not a bitch shield. That’s just women being women, shit testing you for whether or not you are supplicative or not. If I was to use Community lingo speak, they are just making you jumps through their hoops.
September 10th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
You don’t have to buy a girl a thing to get past her bitch shield. The last several times guys at bars asked to buy me a drink, I told them “If you’re just looking to get laid, you’re better off looking elsewhere.”
PUAs teach men not to buy women drinks until they’ve earned it. From reading this, it seems you haven’t read/heard anything that was discussed by PUAs
the one I dated, laughed and continued talking to me. The confident man is the one I dated.
This is in fact what PUAs teach/.
I have no doubt that women use men, and men use women. This post was not about that.
I find it interesting that you are very keen on placing blame.
Nowhere in your original post did you acknowledge the negatives that women contribute to the need for these courses, and you only asked for men to change, not women. In short, your entire post was placing the blame on men. I simply reversed every single one of your suppositions systematically, and from that you deduced that I was looking to blame women.
“piercing the bitch shield” to fuck her and move on without her fully informed consent is part of the problem, providing more validation for the need of a bitch shield!
I’ve read quite/listened fairly extensively. Nowhere have I read that men are supposed to ‘pierce the bitch shield’ so that they can move on after they fuck her. Mystery himself, who came up with Neg theory in order to destroy the bitch shield, specifically points out that he doesn’t like to move on. Unless you can provide multiple sources for this claim, to outweigh things I’ve heard/read from BradP, Thundercat, and others at this summit, I can only conclude that you are projecting your issues/distortions and creating statements out of thin air.
“It sounds like you have a few feelings of your own and it sounds like you’ve been burned. I’m really sorry that has happened.”
Yes and no. I’m in my late 30’s, came across the community a year or so ago, and up until then I have had roughly 80 different relationships in my life. I suppose that would put me in the category of ‘natural’. One chart I’ve seen puts me in the top 13% of men when it comes down to # of partners. I’ve watched too many of my friends, really good guys, do everything that women say they want, only to watch the women say “you are so awesome, you are going to make some girl really happy, I wish my …. were like you”, the whole time these women are ignoring that they could and should be dating these guys if they weren’t complete hypocrites. I’m a musician, and make decent money during the day, and I’ve watched as myself and others have been assigned to the ‘must be a player’ category when it’s obviously the reason we won’t be considered long term boyfriends isn’t because of our intentions, but because of what they perceive our financial prospects/’stability’ to be. On the flipside, several single moms wind up marrying single musicians, then divorcing as the kid leaves the nest, because their value has gone up. Women are as ruthless about ’stability’ and social status as men are about looks.
As far as waiting until they lose their physical attractiveness — when does that happen? Attraction isn’t just about appearance, even though for men is it a lot more about visual appeal - but that isn’t all.
Technically speaking it’s about fertility. Women are the most fertile and have the most fertility ahead of them when they are in their late teens/early twenties. That’s when you are most attractive to us.
What I think is wrong, is lying to the person about how you want the nature of the relationship to be and not giving them the opportunity to figure out if that is also what they want.
The majority of PUAs (BradP, Savoy, Mystery, Style, etc.) advocate honesty on this issue. Cite multiple examples of people advocating the opposite, or else I will again be forced to believe you are projecting your own insecurities onto others, and putting words into people’s mouths.
Social proof in a venue, is not about sex. It is about subcommunicating leadership, confidence, popularity, and connections. Those are really attractive. Social proof is not about proving that you’ve bed a lot of women.
What you say and how things actually play out are two completely different things. It reminds me of this video: http://www.glumbert.com/media/sizematter
Watch that short video, as it completely proves my point.
For a person to derive self-esteem from the number of sex partners they have, as you suggest, means that person doesn’t really have self esteem to begin with.
This is like when women think men derive self-esteem from buying a good pair of shoes
Depending on quality and age, guys need to have a certain number of lovers, just as they need friends, career success, grades, etc. One can overcompensate in any of those categories. Being a grade whore can be a sign of low self-esteem. But being a D student, few friends, a crappy job, and a 25 year old virgin, definitely will be bad for a man’s self-esteem.
If a guy has multiple partners — some women won’t go after that guy
We’re talking about the majority of women, not the minority.
especially if what they want is a monogamous relationship and they refuse to settle. Some women don’t care and are happy to be with that guy. And some women will be with him hoping they can change him — truth is… they can’t.
“If the majority of women did that, that is how the majority of men would be”
Maybe. We may end up with a lot of single childless women if we don’t all become more whole and confident people at the same time.
Something that PUAs point out is that the drives women have, and that men have, can lead them to unhappiness. Nobody said that if you followed all your instincts it would lead to happiness. And so we come back to that initial point: women need to override some of their instincts if they want to follow through in choosing the men that they say that they want.
As for being the change I want to see in the world, again, you assume that I am not already doing that.
Your entire original post placed the burden on men, asking men to rescue women from their condition.
I believe the responsibility is down to each individual. From a sociological point of view, people see women as being choosier about whom they mate with. If you agree, then it stands to reason that women have more influence on the gene pool of the next generation.
September 10th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
I find it interesting that you bundled “being real” and “being emotionally available” together. From my experience, being real works (but you still have to be a masculine man). Being emotionally available on the other hand… is something totally different.
Being TOO emotionally available implies being needy and supplicative. Being real is about not putting the woman on a pedestal and not changing who you are for someone else. It’s also about not putting your life purpose on hold when you meet that truly amazing woman.
I just don’t think of being emotionally available as being needy. It just means you share your feelings. Obviously that includes your passion.
Also, I’m curious of your definition of “bitch shield”. To me, a bitch shield is when a woman acts mean because she is not feeling you. She doesn’t want to talk to you. What you described with woman taking advantage of men when they milk them for various materialistic things is not a bitch shield. That’s just women being women, shit testing you for whether or not you are supplicative or not. If I was to use Community lingo speak, they are just making you jumps through their hoops.
I don’t see where I or anyone ever compared hoops to bitch shields.
September 10th, 2007 at 3:23 pm
Okay, wait, I can see how the way I wrote it was confusing the difference between bitch shields and hoops. I was making the point that women definitely play with men’s feelings. Incidentally, I grew up with women’s lib, so I never paid for anything other than my half of the date. Yay women’s lib!
September 10th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
I find it interesting that you’re so immersed into the community. I find analyzing social interactions and dating to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it can kill spontaneity and fun. On the other hand, it can allow us to better understand what we seek to excel at.
Either way, I learned a lot about you by reading this post, RadiantSun, and I want to say I think I’d enjoy dating you.
September 11th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Truth, my (extremely limited) understanding of developmental psychology is that women at the peak of their fertility (and therefore biological attractiveness) are not yet at a developmental stage where they are capable of the confidence and self-actualization you prefer. I believe that puts the onus on you to consciously develop a broader understanding of attractiveness. If being a PUA isn’t necessarily about being physically attractive but about projecting confidence and social value, then the criteria you use to decide which women you pick up shouldn’t necessarily be about their physical attractiveness, either. Right?
September 11th, 2007 at 9:45 am
[...] A Female Perspective of the PUA Summit, pt. 1 « Kiss N’ Tale on Submitted by PUA RudeDog, 3 seconds ago (kissntale.wordpress.com) [...]
September 11th, 2007 at 9:53 am
Additionally, I think it’s kind of unfair to interpret RadiantSun as “placing blame” on men when she’s trying to help them become better PUAs. The entire PUA philosophy, as I understand it, is this: if you are able to accept regular women for what they are, and predict how they’re likely to act and react in a given situation, then you can work within those parameters in ways that increase the liklihood of a positive interaction.
That is, you wouldn’t be a PUA if you weren’t willing to accept women for what they are and modify your behavior accordingly. To say that women need to change their behavior, too, kind of negates your motivation for joining the community in the first place. It’s the very existence of their shortcomings that enables you to enact behaviors that will make you a successful PUA. Perhaps more women will join the community eventually, but even then they will be developing theories of how to overcome the most common men-specific shortcomings that interfere with people’s abilities to make sustained positive connections.
September 11th, 2007 at 10:24 am
If being a PUA isn’t necessarily about being physically attractive but about projecting confidence and social value, then the criteria you use to decide which women you pick up shouldn’t necessarily be about their physical attractiveness, either. Right?
I believe that puts the onus on you to consciously develop a broader understanding of attractiveness.
The saying is that ‘Attraction Is Not A Choice’ (David DeAngelo). If women were actually capable of being attracted to the kinds of men that society has programmed them to be attracted to, and that they themselves have programmed some men to become, this stuff would be a moot point. PUAs are only interested in discovering how to flick the attraction switches of women so that they can become involved with the women who flick their switches. That leaves men with no obligation to change their desires.
I think it’s kind of unfair to interpret RadiantSun as “placing blame” on men, To say that women need to change their behavior, too,
Mutuality is the most fundamental law of fairness that there is. Period. At least you’ve admitted that RadiantSun is asking men to change their behavior, which is more honest than she was the first time around.
It’s the very existence of their shortcomings that enables you to enact behaviors that will make you a successful PUA.
Women already widely practice PUA tactics. Women are often fashionably late, and make him wait, and expect him to pick up the check. Wait when they pick him up means that he is investing time, and that his anticipation/frustration/investment rises. There was a psychological study that I read about in the mid 90’s in which they took aside two groups of men, and to one they pointed out the tactics that were being used on them, and another they didn’t. The men who had no idea mistook their frustrations and stress and investment, their heightened emotional arousal, for love, and the ones to whom it was pointed out that they should expect to feel emotionally aroused because they’ve been made to feel jealous, or made to be frustrated, etc., they were then asked to feel if they were in fact more deeply in love, if the woman was any more special, and the answer was no.
Other than the physical escalation tactics, the general rule of thumb from Mystery and Style is that if you simply do everything to the really hot girl, the ‘10′, that she normally does to you, then you will never go wrong. In short, 90% of that method is doing to women what women normally do to men.
Turn about is fair play. Nothing in the world could be fairer. If you have a problem with what you are seeing, then you need to look into a mirror and start with what you see there.
September 11th, 2007 at 10:30 am
Wishjoy-
Thanks for your comments! I appreciate that you understand that I’m not placing blame on men. The context of the conference was about men, so the context of my post is about men. I have similar criticisms of women, in particular regarding STDs as well as being honest. You could say, I have “issues” with people who are not honest or accountable, as you can imagine, I sometimes feel very frustrated.
I do agree with Truths last statement, in that, ultimately it comes down to the individual and what they are willing to be responsible for. I believe that sometimes people need more information to be more responsible.
Women could stand to learn from a lot of what was said as well- be friendly with everyone, don’t date the first guy you meet, be confident, don’t be ashamed to be who you are, be honest about who you are and what you want, and the list goes on and on.
If you want to read an article that has a lot of ideas that I agree with more or less, you might enjoy “Is there anything good about men?”
Cheers-
RS
September 11th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Truth, you seem bitter. It makes it hard to want to put any effort into responding to anything you say.
I would tell women the same thing about STDs and honesty. They also need to be reponsible. Especially because they have more to loose when it comes to STDs. I would also tell women that they are only hurting themselves and their “sisters” when they behave dishonorably. However, given that the summit was about MEN and the review was about MEN, it seems a little inappropriate to talk about how I think WOMEN .
The fact that so many of the speakers had to caution AGAINST dishonesty and trickery, suggests that some of the things being learned are being used to trick and deceive.
Re Bitchshield, so what, so I get my terminology confused, it’s not pierce . . .
but the idea of “tricking” someone into lowering it feels unhealthy/unethical to me from a woman’s point of view. Whereas.. .if you are being real and you come across as genuine.. even sexual but genuine it woudln’t be trickery.
The nice thing about being human, is we have a greater degree of free will than any other animal that we know of. Where, free will is defined as the ability to go against the will of the genes.
women need to override some of their instincts if they want to follow through in choosing the men that they say that they want.
Agreed. And the post wasn’t about women.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Radiantsun, I skimmed over the article you linked to. It’s quite good, fair, and I will read it in greater depth. While you may have not sought to blame one side, you only asked one side to address the problems in gender relations. If we really want to fix things, we need everyone to pitch in.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:26 am
Truth, you seem bitter. It makes it hard to want to put any effort into responding to anything you say.
Not bitter but frustrated. At the end of the day, just like in the article you linked to in which the wealthiest men laid down their lives for the poorest of women but received no credit for it, women expect to be rescued, men to do the rescuing, and won’t acknowledge that they aren’t contributing their share of the work. There is a massive double standard at work simply because, as the article points out, society can reproduce with a ton of wombs and only a few scrotums. It benefits society that you have this massive blind spot which you are acknowledging only by linking to an article.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Re Bitchshield, so what, so I get my terminology confused, it’s not pierce . . .
but the idea of “tricking” someone into lowering it feels unhealthy/unethical to me from a woman’s point of view. Whereas.. .if you are being real and you come across as genuine.. even sexual but genuine it woudln’t be trickery.
What’s real about shit tests (which are designed to lower a man’s value and disqualify him if he fails), about foundation, eye liner, push up bras, control top pantyhose, hair dye, etc.?
I don’t have a problem with women who use these things. I have a problem with women who complain about men who use the male equivalents.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Bill–
I’ve just had a cursory intro to the community. I did like what most of the speakers said. And a few things rubbed me the wrong way. I usually prefer to take the good messages and leave the ones I don’t agree with, however the lack of STD discussion hurts guys and girls.
I find analyzing social interactions and dating to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it can kill spontaneity and fun. On the other hand, it can allow us to better understand what we seek to excel at.
I totally agree. It’s interesting to see how some of what I’ve learned in pick-up influences my relationships with people, and how my relationships with people sometimes influence how I feel about what I learn in pick-up.
Cheers-
RS
September 11th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Incidentally, ad hominem attacks are a very cheap debating tactic. Let’s keep it to the issues at hand.
September 11th, 2007 at 11:51 am
We have bitch shields to protect us from being hurt. If you were being real with us, we wouldn’t need our bitch shield up.”
What happened to you and your friends that made you put up a bitch shield?
September 11th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
I think women who expect to be rescued are unhealthy, especially when we are (in American Society) fully capable of helping ourselves. Again, like I said earlier, a person who needs to parent or be parented (including being rescued or rescuer) is not capable of having a truly intimate adult relationship.
Re: Your belief on the use of make-up, you might like this joke:
Please explain to me, what you think a shit test is.
Of course there is a massive double standard, for both sexes. I’m not saying there isn’t. I really believe that men and women have some advantages and disadvantages that are sex-based. It seems like you have a hard time with my article because I focus on men’s behavior, and, you are making a broad range of assumptions about what I believe based on one article.
You could say that women (people, really) do this to men (other people) when they meet . . . and judge the other person based on one snapshot. I believe it is Malcolm Gladwell who promotes that kind of thing in his book Blink. Go with your first impression (I think that’s right in the sense that first impression is a jumping off point). My guess is that going with first impressions, you and I are not “destined” to get along, or even agree, or even pause long enough to see that we agree on more than we disagree.
I didn’t post to debate. I don’t mind if people disagree with me. It sounds like you feel like I’m attacking men, and that is not my intention.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
“An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind” - Gandhi
Anyone who isn’t hypocritical can see that using the very same tactics women use on men is eminently fair. Anyone who isn’t hypocritical realizes that women need to put in just as much work and take just as much responsibility for making male - female relationships better.
There needs to be an additional question asked. Are we leaving people hurt, and how do we make sure that people have better relationships? The general motto in the PUA community is to ‘leave her better than you found her’. The official writings and teachings, if they were strictly followed, would do so. Just as when you pull back the curtain and look at how women really behave when they think no one is looking (http://www.glumbert.com/media/sizematter), I’ve met some of the people who have done the writing, and they don’t always follow their own teachings.
As Christina Hoff Sommers wrote, there is no empirical evidence to show that women are any more moral or kinder than men. Historically however, women have had more to lose by choosing their mates poorly. I think that is what really scares women about this PUA stuff, that choice will no longer because so lopsided on their behalf, and before birth control they had more riding on this than men. I think there are actually a lot of benefits to men having equal choice to women. I agree with everything but the first point in this article: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20070622-000002.xml
(In South America and other parts of the world men prefer brown eyed/brunettes with great butts, not blue eyed/blondes with great boobs)
If you watch VH1’s The Pickup Artist, and I’ve met some of the actual contestants who’ve moved out here to LA, other than Pradeep they are all overwhelmingly sweet. I think the world would be a better place if we got women to fall for these kinds of guys for a change.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
I don’t feel like you’re attacking men. I feel like you haven’t embraced the idea that women are 50% of the solution.
Re: Your belief on the use of make-up, you might like this joke:
?????
Please explain to me, what you think a shit test is.
Shit tests are when women test a man’s frame, and try to get him to act in a fashion that is lower status than her. For instance, ‘buy me a drink’ when she just meets him. By being ‘nice’, he now proves he is ‘too eager’. Style himself laments that it’s really sad that being ‘nice’ automatically disqualifies you, that ‘nice’ behavior is in fact punished.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
My guess is that going with first impressions, you and I are not “destined” to get along, or even agree, or even pause long enough to see that we agree on more than we disagree.
There’s a whole lot I’m going to agree with you about once I hear unequivocally from you that women are 50% of both the problem and the solution, as I believe men are.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
As for how my friends and I have been hurt, I’m not sure whether or not to answer that. I’m not saying I won’t ever answer that in detail, but I’m going to think about it before I do. Some women have bitch sheilds for the some of the same reasons men seek PUA: they’ve been hurt, lied to, manipulated, used, treated badly, etc. For a woman, when a man approaches, there is this precedent that has already been set by other men, that pain may occur if you let him get close. Not all women have this. However, if you understood where it came from, you’d understand that being real and genuine easily makes the bitch shield disappear.
And, even though many women have “bitch shields”, we don’t have to (if I understand it correctly). It seems like a faulty solultion to a deeper problem between the sexes, but it is a solve seems to work. I am experimenting with better solutions. But I only go out so often in a places where I’m approached.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
There’s a whole lot I’m going to agree with you about once I hear unequivocally from you that women are 50% of both the problem and the solution, as I believe men are.
If that’s all you want! Yes, women are 50% of the problem. No doubt about it. It takes two to tango, only one to mess up the dance, and I would say that men and women mess it up about the same.
Statements like this: You are totally right with your chicken and egg point — I feel that it is because of how some men and some women treat each other that a problem has developed for everyone else and some start acting from a fear based place, furthering the problem. Suggest to me that I’m agreeing with that sentiment already.
Linking to the speech about men, is another way that it seems I’m acknowledging that.
September 11th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
We both live in LA. I’m in Hollywood. This conversation will be easier to have at a bookstore or at The Grove or something. I have to run, so here’s an email address that you can hit up: Disposable Address:
truth027-4radiantsun@yahoo.com
September 11th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
If that’s all you want! Yes, women are 50% of the problem. No doubt about it. It takes two to tango, only one to mess up the dance, and I would say that men and women mess it up about the same.
Cool.
September 11th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Ah, that joke re. the use of make-up was supposed to be a picture of: http://images28.fotki.com/v1003/photos/1/19466/109302/Beer-vi.jpg
It didn’t post.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:05 am
That picture was hilarious!
I was wondering why the second post wasn’t forthcoming. Then I read the comments and saw that the discussion had been derailed by “Truth”.
I think the post was awesome - it’s going into my archives. Like you said, whether or not women should be working as hard as men wasn’t the point of the article (which, being on this blog should have been obvious). I can’t wait to read more.
Truth, I think it’s too bad you can’t admit that you are in fact bitter, not just frustrated. And as for the 80 plus relationships, without more details I couldn’t say whether that’s particularly impressive.
Unless your intent every time was just to have a fling, I find these questions popping up in my mind.
What does it say about you that your 80 attempts at relationships have been unsuccessful?
What does it say about the type of woman you attract?
Perhaps you need to change the venues you go to to meet them. Perhaps all your negativity is part of the issue. You reap what you sow. Maybe you should take the positivity challenge…
September 12th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
John, my only beef from the beginning of this article is that if men and women are ever going to have better relationships, then everything asked of men needs to be asked of women as well. RadiantSun agrees. Do you agree? I think that’s positive.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
This article “Is there anything good about men?” points it out fairly well, that during the 70’s there was a brief period between the time before that when men were considered superior to women, and the time after that when women were considered to be better than men, when we were raised with the ‘free to be you and me’. I’ve never been used financially, other than 2 or 3 times I’ve never really been lied to at all, I’ve never personally had to get past bitch shields because I’m fairly attractive… at one point I’ve even been asked to model… but what really upsets me is that the idea of fairness and equality has just left our society. There literally was a time when women were insisting on paying for their own dates, eschewing make-up, etc. Then came Madonna in about 84-85, which repopularized much of that stuff, which I suppose was destined to be brought back in the popular culture by someone… but what upsets me is the massive double standard with which culture operates, and so many are blind to.
September 12th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
What does it say about you that your 80 attempts at relationships
What does it say about you, your generation, and how times have changed that a man in his late 30’s saying he’s had 80 different relationships ‘is a lot’? Certainly not a lot for the 60’s & 70’s era.