The Seduction Community: A Confusing Mess
Posted by Khiem in: Articles

Since the end of 2004, I’ve been reading and analyzing a lot of the major theories on men-women relationships as found in the Seduction Community.  I got to thank my friend in Tampa for introducing me this “hobby.”  I hate it and love it at the same time.  I’ve definitely learned a lot, but I hate that term:  “Seduction Community.”  It sounds so impure and perverted when sexuality itself should be more openly embraced.  Tsk tsk tsk… BAD societal programming!  Sexuality is such an integral part of the human experience that I don’t see what is wrong with learning how to better meet and create meaningful relationships with women. 

The one good thing about learning about pick-up is that it really gives you a better understanding of what creates attraction.  If you are a late bloomer and have limited dating or sexual experience with women,  how are you supposed to know when or how to turn things sexual in a confident manner?  Trial and error is great, but it’s very inefficient when you want to accelerate your own development.

My involvement with the Community stemmed from pure curiosity:  could I learn a little something that could improve my relationships with women.  Was I even missing anything in my understanding of them?  I started with David DeAngelo‘s “Double Your Dating” e-book.  It was a fun short read and definitely kicked my “Mr. Nice Guy’s” ass.  From then on until mid-2006, I casually explored what other camps had to write on the topic.  I found my way to material from mASF, Wayne “Juggler” Elise from Charisma Arts, Erik “Mystery” Von Markovik from Venusian Arts (formerly from Mystery Method, which has now become Love Systems), “Tyler Durden” from Real Social Dynamics, Asian Playboy, Ranko “Shark” Mangami from Attract and Date,  Sebastian “Dimitri” Drake from theApproach and Vin “Woodhaven” DiCarlo of DiCarlo Diclassified (formerly of theApproach) … etc and that’s not even the end of the list!

In the fall of 2005, Neil “Style” Strauss brought the Seduction Community into the public eye by releasing his book The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists where he wrote about his journey going from loser to ladies’ man.  That book was more entertaining than educational but it talked a lot about the PUA Community at large (which I found very insightful) so I liked it.  By contrast, Tucker Max had a very different perspective on pick-up in his own book I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell (I haven’t read it yet).  Unlike Neil Strauss, Tucker Maxx is what the Seduction Community considers a natural and from reading his personal review of Neil’s book, I could see a huge difference in mindsets.

Now, there has been an influx of new material from all sources… some credible, some not.  So how is someone supposed to filter through the mounds and mounds of information available out there?

Let me tell you… GOOD LUCK!

The Seduction Community is a mess.  If you are making a search on Google, you will soon learn the meaning of epilepsy as your head gets dizzy trying to work its way through the extreme marketing campaigns that entice you with the power to seduce the most beautiful women in the world.  If you are lucky to get past them, you will find a myriad of seemingly contradicting information.  If you decide to ask someone for guidance, you will inadvertantly get sucked into debates over direct vs indirect methods, natural vs canned material, inner game vs outer game. 

Which method is best depends completely on what YOU are looking for.  The answers you get are based on the level of sucess the person you are asking from is having.  So help yourself by answering these questions:  what kind of man do I want to be?  Do I prefer to be a great conversationalist, or do I like to entertain?  Do I want to memorize lines or can I be completely spontaneous?  What kind of women do I want to meet?  What kind of relationships do I want to have?  Where do I like to meet women?

The worst part of it all is that if you decide to learn a little bit from everybody, it won’t be easy.  The terms that are commonly used across the Community actually have different connotations in the various schools of thoughts because each method endorses a different mindset.  Let me give you a couple of examples:


  • theApproach defines attraction as the combination of Value, Attainability and Compliance (VAC) during an interaction and throughout a relationship.  It is the entire process that a man can lead a woman through towards seduction.  
  • Mystery and his followers describe attraction as the phase when a man demonstrates higher value (DHV) to stand out from the crowd in a woman’s eyes before he can go into rapport/comfort with her.  Comparitively, theApproah also teaches men to display value but they don’t have a stage dedicated to do so.  According to theApproach, showing value is achieved during the interaction mostly through your vibe.


  • As quoted from Savoy in his e-book “Magic Bullets,” “Disqualification means that we say or do something that someone who was interested in her would not likely say or do. This convinces her that we are not hitting on her, and this, amusingly, is what actually allows us to hit on her effectively.”  So a line like “You’re fun; too bad you’re not my type” would be considered a disqualification (DQ) in Mystery Method.
  • Interestingly, that kind of line would be considered banter in PU101.
  • In Juggler’s e-book “How to Meet and Connect with Women,” a DQ is the process when “you are actively demonstrating a persona who is far from approval seeking.”  A DQ is typically a response to the woman’s putting a qualification first.  For example:
    • Her: I gotta tell you, I broke up with my last boyfriend because he just couldn’t tell the truth.
      You: Yeah, that’s a bad thing and people should be more truthful, and I’m like that, I’m not always truthful and I want to be a more truthful person.

Can you see how this is all confusing?  The terminology used in the Community describes similar concepts but doesn’t have the exact same meaning or use depending on which method you are reading.  Argh!  You know what?  I’m going to help you sort it out.  Just remember that these are my personal interpretations of each method.

Here is how the Community is divided:

  1. Indirect Methods teach men to approach women  inconspicuously with neutral topics.  The opinion opener is the perfect example of that.  “Hey guys, I need a quick female opinion on something… [insert your question]”  The question has no right or wrong answer but it’s supposed to get the girl talking.  From there, you can move into the attraction phase (DHV) where you try to stand out in the girl’s mind by entertaining (i.e. magic, palm reading, hand analysis) or showing how sociable you are through storytelling, humor, etc.  Once you are deemed cool and fun to the group/girl, you transition into the qualifying and comfort stages to seduce the girl.
    Companies:  Venusian Arts, Love Systems (formerly known as The Mystery Method), Stylelife Academy,
    - Signature techniques:  Neg, Multi-Thread Theory, memorized routines, group theory, Bait-Hook-Reel-Release, Peacocking
  2. Direct Methods focus on developing strong inner game.  Men are encouraged to face and overcome their fears or insecurities in order to live out their lives and desires unapologetically.
    Companies:  Attract and Date, Mode One
    Signature topics:  Get out of the matrix, not being afraid of showing sexual interest upfront, being dominant
  3. Natural Structured Methods teach men how to develop their own attractiveness (both inner and outer beauty) and use their current skillsets to attract women.  Most techniques revolve around talking to people in a manner as natural as possible and using normal yet dominant/high value/alpha-styled spontaneous topics to create intrigue.  Natural Methods are proponents of the “assume attraction” mindset and relies heavily on projecting a strong and friendly vibe.
    Companies:  Charisma Arts, theApproach, DiCarlo Diclassified, Enlightened Seduction (Zan Perrion),  David Wygant, Social Relations Institute, Hitch Academy
    Charisma Arts signature techniques:  vacuum, statement of intent (SOI), disqualification (DQ), open-ended questions, relate/reward, “Alpha Nice”
    theApproach signature techniques:  focus, threadcutting, situational relevance, Mutual Value Escalation (MVE), Value Flux, VAC, setting proper expectations in relationships, High Value Attainability (HVA) statement, having fun
    DiCarlo signature techniques:  sexual tension, compliance, Vin DiCarlo Escalation Ladder, sexual selection switch (S-Cubed)
    es signature topics:  I’m not familiar with Zan’s teachings but it seems that he focuses on teaching men how to become attractive and how to appreciate a woman’s true beauty.  He promotes a “mindset, a lifestyle, a higher form of interaction” rather than any particular techniques.  He refers to himself as a lover, not a pick-up artist.
    - David Wygant signature topics:  observe everything to come up with openers (pay attention), create a lifestyle, be in the moment, sexual tension, men are scoobydoos, don’t give your power away, play and use spontaneous props if needed
  4. Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) uses stories of imagined scenarios or past experience to elicit emotions in a woman.  This form of attraction is sometimes misconceived as using light hypnosis in daily speech.  Technically, any form of sexual metaphors and imageries makes heavy use of NLP.
    Companies:  Ross Jeffries, Vince “Hollywood” Kelvin, Dave Riker, In10se  
    Signature techniques: patterns, value elicitation, anchoring… etc.
  5. Cocky Comedy is an attitude taught by David DeAngelo.  He advocates the use of light teasing techniques called Cocky and Funny (C&F) to show women that the man is confident, masculine, yet fun.  The attitude is meant to draw women’s attention to the man and to put him in a position where women would want to chase him.  David DeAngelo is well known for his inner game DVDs and interviews with dating gurus.
    Company:  David DeAngelo
    Signature techniques: Cocky and Funny
  6. Other describes other major and minor players in the Seduction Community who do not clearly fit in any categories.
    PU101 is led by Lance “Sensei” Mason who used to be a disciple of Mystery Method.  His current teachings emphasize getting the body used to approaching.  So the Art of Attraction bootcamp is meant to drill your body into doing the action of the approach and will not teach you too much theory.  Their specialty technique is banter.  Their approach structure is somewhat reminiscent of the indirect structure of Mystery but their mindset and application is more related to natural game.
    Real Social Dynamics (Tyler Durden) used to be a variant of Mystery Method but is now shifting towards Natural Game.  Their new teachings talk about all the major principles of natural game such as having fun, being non-reactive, leading… etc.  From the little I have seen of them, the company give off a very fraternity-like energy.  People are there to have fun.  They do high energy, crazy things just because they can.  For some people, they may borderline with being obnoxious.
    Badboy Lifestyle:  BadBoy started with Direct Method but now teaches his own style that blends a little bit of Direct, Indirect and Natural game.  His company is now doing joint promotions with The Mystery Method.
    Carlos Xuma:  Carlos Xuma promotes being REAL (an acronym for his method) and talks a lot about inner game.  I don’t know enough about him to classify him under the “natural game” category.
    Doctor Paul: I’m not too familiar with him either, but it seems like he’s advocating some kind of psychogical understanding of your mind with a product called MindOS.  He uses his psychology degree to explain dating.
    - Cutting Edge Image Consulting (Stephen Nash) was part of Project Hollywood with Mystery and Style in the book “The Game.”  He focuses on teaching men how to develop a lifestyle to not only meet women, but to find the right woman. 
    EDIT 08/29/2007:  I’ve been reading a little bit of his blog recently and he sounds a lot like David Wygant so I would say that Stephen Nash has laid down his routine, heavily techniques-oriented background for a more natural approach to dating.
    Ideagasms (Stephane Hemon) promotes what he calls “heart-centered pickup” because he does not try to “trick” women into liking him.  He’s most famous for his Squirting Orgasms DVD.  He encourages men to be very dominant.
    - Asian Playboy used to be a student of Mystery and learned from Badboy/Shark as well.  He now teaches his own system that mixes direct and indirect methods called the ABCs of Attraction (Approach, Buying Temperature, Comfort, Direct Interest, Escalate/Extract, Fuck)… etc.  He specializes in helping minorities become good with women.
    David Shade is mostly known for his sex techniques on how to give women powerful orgasms through G-spot, Deep Spot stimulation and hypnosis.  He also has programs about how to become good at phone sex.

There are a lot more companies out there but I can’t cover them all.  I only covered the most reputable and recognizable ones who seem to have extensive educational programs.  I probably missed some of them that you’d think deserve to be on the list but just write them in your comments (Swingcat?  Thundercat?  Gunwitch?  Hypnotica…)

Are the material from the companies listed above all authored by men?  Don’t you read anything written by women? 

Reading something from a woman is very insightful in understanding how she thinks.  However, a woman writes about her perspective on dating multiple men.  She tells you what she feels is important to her.  I skim dating books from women when I browse my local Barnes & Noble or Borders from time to time.  It’s definitely interesting!  That’s why I enjoy reading sites like Tynan’s Angels and The Truth About Cocks and Dolls blog but if I only read books from women, it becomes a case of the blind leading the blind.  What if the girl I want to date is not like the author of the book I’m reading?  Her advice may not apply.   It’s more realistic for me to read from men who have spent their lives studying and figuring out the attraction trends they encounter when they approach women.

Do you have any recommendations for someone new to the Community?

As I said earlier, the method you want to learn from depends on what you are trying to achieve and what you feel comfortable with.  ALL methods work when applied correctly.  I personally favor Natural Structured Methods the most because they are congruent with my lifestyle and belief system about women.  I also don’t like memorizing, creating and perfecting routines like Indirect Methods do… so the choice was clear for me.

No matter who you decide to learn from, you will gain a much better understanding of how men-women relationships work.  The insights on dating and female psychology is invaluable.  You’ll definitely improve yourself quite a bit as a more social and confident man.  There is no way you won’t become more aware of the little hints/cues women use to show sexual interest in you and you will be better prepared for handling various common dating situations.

However, remember that all the material available out there is just more information that can clutter your mind.  The key to becoming good at anything is to get out there and DO IT.  Life rewards action.  So if you want to improve your dating life, go out more, meet and talk to women.  Simply reading about women won’t change your love life one bit.

And if you REALLY want to know what I feel are the pros and cons of each method, you can email me at itotem [at] kissntale . com or use the “email me” form at the top right of this page.

Alright, peace!

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